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The analogy kind of falls apart since she is not limited to this guy and Chad. She’s free to choose nothing at all. With Trump vs Biden, there’s no viable third option, and having no president is not one of the options. So the “Trump is worse” argument becomes viable simply because you do have to choose one of them.
Continue with that analogy. What would happen if that woman had no other option. Should she choose the nice guy, the chad or object to the choice being fostered upon her and choose nobody? And if she’s paired anyway with that person, should she then act as if it was her choice, or take actions to disengage from that person and destroy the system that caused these turn of events?
You can tactically vote for Biden to avoid Trump and still take actions to dismantle the system.
Or you could maybe take actions to fix the system. Because whatever you lot come up with after dismantling is going be worse for everybody else.
You can still do both. The only viable path to election reform comes from downballot state elections anyway.
You can still do both
Not sure that I follow what you mean. You can’t fix a system that is being dismantled, so I’m guessing that you mean something else.
Well if you properly dismantle the system, we won’t be voting this November anyway. Better get on that quick, bud.
I disagree, if we are legitimately talking about dismantling the USA, like what happened to USSR, then it will take decades or more to do peacefully. Not gonna happen overnight, babe.
So the woman in our scenario should decide to choose the “Nice Guy” tactically?
No, I’m saying that your analogy breaks down.
I don’t think it does. A choice fostered upon me at the threat of violence is not a choice at all. I refuse to participate and therefore legitimize such a farce.
You’re free to do nothing, but smart people choose to minimize harm when there are only bad choices in front of them.
Who said I’m “doing nothing”? Voting isn’t doing anything. Only actions outside the ballot matter.
Non-participation is not the same as doing nothing. If she chooses to date neither, neither is in her life. If you do nothing, you still get trump or Biden. The analogy doesn’t hold.
And so I refer you back to my first comment in this thread
Yeah nah mate. You have the right to not vote. But if you choose to exercise this right you don’t get to whinge about the person elected by those who did vote.
Society is not composed of you and you alone. It is composed of many. You took yourself outta this decision but it’s still being made freely by everyone else and no, it doesn’t impinge on you to accept the democratic consensus of the many
I understand that I’m living in an oppressive system enforced by violence and that my life is shaped at the threat of state violence. you don’t need to reiterate that to me. It’s why I’m not legitimizing it by participating in this farce of “democracy” and instead dedicate my life to changing it.
Whichever puppet is on top doesn’t change all that whatsoever. Nor will your platitudes about be “accepting the democratic consensus of the many” when I don’t have the alternative due to said violence.
But if you choose to exercise this right you don’t get to whinge about the person elected by those who did vote.
roflmao, sorry, that is just absurd.
until the UN General Assembly says that the right to share an opinion only applies to people who vote, you are totally wrong.
i’ll exercise my universal right to complain and have self-determination in government by not voting for genocidal maniacs, thank you very much.
You can refuse to vote but you’re still going to end up with one of those two as your president. Are you OK with not having a say about which one it ends up being just to make a point to nobody in particular?
Are you OK with not having a say about which one it ends up being just to make a point to nobody in particular?
Abstention makes a point to everyone in general through the tracking of voter participation levels.
You shouldn’t not vote. Vote for someone else instead. Vote for the person you want to represent you.
I might register to vote just to write in “thanks for counting the votes” for president - or I guess I could vote for Cornel West, but what’s the point? The abstention would be more representative of my views, at this time, I believe.
As pointless as Voting third party is in the US, at least you remain included in the considerations of the Ruling Class. Don’t Vote and your interests are ignored as irrelevant.
. A choice fostered upon me at the threat of violence is not a choice at all. I refuse to participate and therefore legitimize such a farce.
Life is full of choice forced upon you, thats unavoidable short of choosing to stop existing. I am forced to choose between where to work. If I say “fuck it, I’m not going to legitimize this capitalist system, I’m making no such choice”, I’ve still made a choice, one that will end up with me being homeless. The threat of violence came true anyways.
It’s in my best interest to choose, and in the meantime work to dismantle the capitalist system that is threatening me with homelessness. But when it comes to voting, it’s worse because the lives of others are on the line.
You don’t have the luxury to stand by and do nothing when people’s lives are on the line.
How many trans people will die as a result of suicide or outright killings as a result of Trump coming to power? Their blood will be on your hands, how much are you ok having on your hands? You have the opportunity to vote for a candidate that isn’t going to ban GAC, who isn’t going to condone or pardon violence against trans people, who isn’t going to shift the culture towards more hatred.
And you’re choosing to stand idly by and let the harm happen.
A choice fostered upon me at the threat of violence is not a choice at all
Indeed. Vote your conscience or don’t vote at all.
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Yes. While there’s nothing wrong with sex work, if you’re forced into it to survive when you’d rather not (marriage or cohabitation because it’s either that or sex someone to get a low or higher paying job) it’s still forced prostitution, and once Mr. Nice Guy has you, it’s mask off, 100. Even if you willingly choose Mr. Nice Guy, and the mask comes off, it’s a bait and switch, rather than duress and still scummy.
To put it another way, if your choices are die from dehydration or drink poisoned water, dehydration may be less agonizing than drinking from a brackish source.
You are participating regardless. You are simply letting others decide for you.
Abstention has historically been a way to declare your distaste for all options and, outside of America, is regarded as honorable. For some reason Americans don’t get that a massive absence at the polls isn’t just about “having better things to do”.
If the woman in the scenario is going to be stuck with the nice guy or Donald Trump, then yes she should tactically choose the guy who isn’t an unapologetic rapist. She can influence the nice guy’s behavior, and avoid the horror of Trump. She does not have to condone or accept the nice guy’s bullshit behavior, and there will be a future.
Your utterly not related nor relatable to reality scenario is pointless.
Should she choose to watch Star Wars or Star Trek after having stabbed both your imaginary scum bag and his friend chad. Has the same relevance to the Election.
And if she’s paired anyway with that person
This line right here is where it should be obvious how far this “analogy” has to be twisted to even start to become analogous.
It is an irrational nonequivalency and stupid.
object to the choice being fostered upon her and choose nobody?
do you genuinely think not voting will make neither candidate win
Using the trolley problem as an analogy, if you don’t pull the lever the people run over by it are not your fault but the trolley company’s, but if you do pull the lever the death of the guy on the other tracks is absolutely on you.
I assume you voted for Biden last election, to avoid the trolley running over the people in that proverbial track. Congratulations, you are guilty of murdering all those Palestinian children. Now, next election, if (when) Trump wins, your vote even for Biden is what gives legitimacy to his presidency.
After that news on research that a Trump victory would likely spell the end of NATO, don’t be surprised if the rightists starts to see this election as being about ending NATO and withdrawing from the UN.
Typical right-wing goals that maybe leftists don’t appreciate the strength of conviction that the hard-liners have.
That (and the obvious social conservative goals) are the only legitimacy that Drumpf really has.
edit: also, Trump trumped Biden on the Palestenian genocide when he moved the Israeli embassy. i’m sure that that emboldened Netanyahu to press even harder rightwards. Now look at it.
ending NATO
But an end to NATO would be an unambiguously good thing. It has literally never fought a defensive war in its history and the places its invaded and bombed are still hurting decades later.
withdrawing from the UN.
A UN where the US couldn’t veto a hundred demands for peace in Palestine, backed by threat of sanctions is also an unambiguously good thing.
If I genuinely believed Trump would bring about a peaceful dismantling of the American Empire, I’d have to campaign for him.
If I genuinely believed Trump would bring about a peaceful dismantling of the American Empire, I’d have to campaign for him.
He is straight up using Hitler’s play book.
https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/10/04/trump-poison-blood-quote/
If you at all care about the lives of trans people, black people, women, latin american people, and the other many targets of Trump & the republicans, then you must recognize that under no circumstances should Trump be given power.
But an end to NATO would be an unambiguously good thing
If one were to take Russia at face-value, they might lighten up a bit with less NATO.
A UN where the US couldn’t veto a hundred demands for peace in Palestine, backed by threat of sanctions is also an unambiguously good thing.
The US is one of like, what, two countries in the entirety of the UN that haven’t yet ratified ICESCR after 50+ years. So, making some more sense there, too.
I’d not see us leave the UN, though, because then we would truly be screwed. The US would officially no longer embrace human rights, not being a member-state.
But point well taken.
If I genuinely believed Trump would bring about a peaceful dismantling of the American Empire, I’d have to campaign for him.
I’d genuinely be right there with you if he came out as 100% in favor of UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
Not having that is an automatic disqualifier for me.
The US would officially no longer embrace human rights
The US only embraces human rights of enemy states. We’ve got more prisoners than any other country and support the worst dictatorships.
Until we ratify the International Covenant on Economic Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR) in the US, I’m inclined to agree.
If one were to take Russia at face-value, they might lighten up a bit with less NATO.
If one were to take Russia at face-value, then one would be an idiot that would be shocked once Russia started invading countries like Georgia, Belarus, Hungary, Poland, Finland…
If one were to take Russia at face-value, then one would be an idiot
I’ll bite, as one would be an asshole to think one was an idiot for understanding a basic of diplomacy - engage with the opposite side in a constructive manner.
At face-value, recall, Russia is currently explicitly dedicated to being an enemy of the West. Do you want them to always be our enemy?
engage with the opposite side in a constructive manner.
Russia is currently explicitly dedicated to being an enemy of the West.
That’s entirely due to Vladimir Putin. Neither Gorbachev nor Yeltsin were ‘enemies’ of the west. (OTOH, the dismantling of the USSR really could have benefited from some help from the west; the oligarchs and political elites sacked the wealth of the country, which paved the way for Putin.) Capitulating to Putin would not soften his stance; he would still believe that all of the formerly Warsaw-pact countries ‘belong’ to the United Soviet Socialist Republics. He still believes that sections of Finland that Russia lost in the Continuation War belong to Russia. He still believes that all the Baltic countries belong to the USSR, despite the USSR not having existed for 30-odd years.
NATO is strictly a defensive organization. The NATO agreement is that IF Russia invades any member country, that all NATO signatories will come to the defense of that country. If a signatory invades Russia, then they’re on their own. The only think that NATO directly opposes is Russian aggression; all Russia has to do to avoid war with NATO is… Not invade a NATO country.
Not Voting is a Vote, just as not choosing is a choice. It is simply a Vote for the worse option based upon your judgment. You remain 100% responsible for enabling what happens simply because you didn’t do what you could to prevent it.
“In reality, there is no such thing as not voting: you either vote by voting, or you vote by staying home and tacitly doubling the value of some Diehard’s vote.”
David Foster Wallace, Consider the Lobster and Other Essays
it’s not really a vote for the worse option, it’s a vote saying “i don’t know what’s best or don’t care, so i’ll take whatever happens”
The entire concept of Voting boycott is idiotic. The premise being, “less of a problem gets me noticed!”, astoundingly resulted in the protest Voter being ignored.
if all the people that don’t vote, voted third party: they’d win…
nope. Still lower numbers than the two established parties. However, what it would do is get the numbers high enough that the various monied and political interests involved paid attention to what those folks were thinking. Unlike the non-Voter whom everyone ignores as they don’t Vote.
Your argument relies on hordes of people suddenly, magically changing their behavior in a cohesive and coordinated way. Have fun with that.
Which ends up being an acceptance of the worst option, because the boomers who vote for Trump always vote every election.
It’s a trolley problem. The trolley is flying down the tracks. The boomers are itching to vote for Trump.
Standing by and doing nothing makes you complicit.
Yup. Evangelicals shall Vote every single election. You sure that not Voting is the flex you think it is?
Not Voting is a Vote
No it isn’t, fuck that doublespeech. That’s like saying to the woman in op’s example ‘If you don’t choose between Niceguy and Chad and then one of them comes and rapes you it’s your fault for not choosing the other to protect you when you got the chance’.
That analogy was flawed from the start and doesn’t apply to anything. Stop using it, and stop even thinking about it.
With the current election, there are two choices, and only two choices. That is the reality you have to work with. We know that x number of Republican voters are going to turn out no matter what. So by not voting, you aren’t making any kind of moral stand. You are just deciding to let the greater of two evils win.
And the reason OP’s analogy falls apart is choosing nobody or someone else is actually valid when you are deciding who to date. But there is going to be a president, it is going to be one of those two people, and not voting/voting third party in 2024 does not change that.
100% does. You have voted to let the majority of those remaining to decide for you. That you did so is actually logged if you are eligible, IE registered. Sorry sunshine, reality happens no matter how hard you hold your breath and stamp your feet.
The whole point of the trolley problem is to illustrate how difficult culpability/blame is and how a single choice can be incredibly multi-faceted to the point where you can’t possibly untangle it and find the “correct” answer unless you adhere to a strict, well-defined moral framework. Which usually means making a choice to ignore other factors and other valid moral frameworks. Hence the conundrum. It’s real use is to test drive how each framework handles the situation and to see your reaction to it.
You’re missing the lesson here, or purposely obscuring it to win an internet argument in the hopes no one looks too closely because you cited a thoroughly-meme’d smart sounding philosophical question.
The ‘correct’ answer to the trolley problem is subjective, that’s the whole point. I used it to illustrate where I stand, not what the absolutely moral choice is.
I’ve been pointing how awful that trolley company is since I reached my teens, I’ve been out in the streets protesting the dangers of this very track, trying to stop the trolleys from running, I would burn down the Trolley Company’s headquarters if needed, but I am not killing that one guy no matter what.
I wasn’t trying to ‘win’ an argument or even convince the other commenter of anything, just trying to tell my point of view as a non voter (for ethical reasons). I see voting as a very meaningful action, if the person I vote wins everything they do while in power is going to be a bit either thanks to me or my fault. And they do a lot more bad than good, I would feel that some of that blood is in my hands.
The police officers in Uvalde had no legal responsibility to protect the children in the school. They were not required to charge in and stop–shoot–the person that murdered so many children. And yet, we quite rightly condemn their unwillingness to act, even though acting would placed them at risk of harm or death at the hands of the shooter. They had the ability to prevent mass murder, and they did not.
The person that refuses to act, when it puts them at no risk, and costs no more than the minor inconvenience of standing in line for a few minutes, is certainly no better than the police officers in Uvalde.
I’m opposed to killing ‘innocent’ people, if the guy in the trolley problem wanted to kill the people on the other track I would certainly pull the lever. But now that you bring children killers to the conversation, you are arguing not just for not getting into the school or stoping the killer but for voting him for more child-killing because the other child-killer is worst. I find all of that very twisted and I want no part in it.
Whether you want to be a part of it or not, if you are a US citizen, you are. Your only choice is to reduce hard, or not.
There are many issues with this analogy. For starters, the person can choose to date nobody and they aren’t stuck with any guy. “Nobody” is actually a choice. They can also look elsewhere - they have countless immediate, viable options.
If I choose not to vote, I still get Trump or Biden.
A woman has the legitimate choice to go out with a third guy or nobody. We do not have a legitimate choice of anybody but Biden or Trump for president. One of the two will be chosen.
This meme is stupid and amounts to pro-fascist propaganda.
youre going to get a lot of hate for stating facts.
theres a huge contingent here on lemmy who really want fascism to win, so theyre attempting to guilt people into voting for a 3rd party
Fascism is already winning. It’s going to win regardless of whether we vote for Trump or Biden. That’s just the reality of it. Vote for whoever the fuck you want. That’s your freedom. Just know that in America, the ruling class will never part with even a shred of their power.
Giving up and giving in are the same thing to the ruling class. They appreciate your support…not you specifically, but rather the investment they’ve made to make you accept their rule as fate.
It’s not giving up; it’s acknowledging the reality of the Groundhog Day movie we’re stuck in, and doing what you will with that information. This endless circle of the working class bickering over “the lesser of two evils” every 4 years needs to end.
Sure, as soon as the working class realizes that isn’t the choice. The choice is obvious. People voting for the right, the party for the owner class are being tricked into voting for the same bosses that treat them like shit.
This prevents the working class people from being elected because the cost of running has been driven up by the right so all we have left are weathly democrats and those that aren’t, those that made the mistake of baretending are ridiculed and the working class who votes right join in the piling.
They are class traitors and need this both sides narrative to justify being played for the fools they are
It’s a situation with no correct answer, and that’s what makes it so frustrating. That’s generally why I point out that we’re just looking at different flavors of fascism, but people should still vote however the hell they want, or don’t.
i hate the dems as useless conservatives, but this ‘BoTh SideS aRe thE SAME’ argument is crap.
you might as well just say ‘everyone give up, humanity is over’.
It’s not giving up though; it’s acknowledging a reality and making a decision with that information. The alternative is that we get stuck in this nauseating infinite loop of voting for “the lesser of two evils,” while the working class bicker. Both sides aren’t the same, but they lead to the same outcome—as we’ve seen over and over. This is the trap they have put us in and these are the intended results.
Humanity isn’t over, but America is. Its already fascist, and now we just wait for the empire to crumble.
This comment is, in and of itself, facist.
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Identification of enemies as a unifying cause (leftists)
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Attacking anybody left of mid right biden for sowing political disunity and furthering degeneracy / good ole blatant misinformation (claims that third party voters just want Trump)
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Insistence that “ONLY WE” can save the country.
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Appeals to totalitarianism (“Only one of these two can be chosen”)
America is already fascist, has been, and Democrats are just blue MAGA - Which is why they don’t mind Republicans and dedicate their lives to attacking the left while blaming us for any and every loss (another faschie tactic.)
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Found the metaphorical incel
Fascism is when you don’t support a genocidal leader
Fascism is when you rule with an axe.
Wow. What a stupid thing to say out loud.
Voting is a chess move, not a fucking love letter.
Hate to break it to you, but your chess games have led you to the precipice of fascism and climate apocalypse. But keep playing, I’m sure the next game will reverse all that.
HMMMM DO I WANT THE GUY THAT ISN’T GOING TO STOP OUR SLIDE TO FASCISM or the guy who is going to accelerate it??
It’s such a tough choice! I don’t know what to do! Maybe I should just not vote so the second guy has a better chance???
Do you know what’s so frustrating about these people? They often won’t show up until 6-9 months before the election and start complaining about the lack of choice. They don’t vote in the primaries, they don’t work the other 3 1/2 years on campaigns or for causes they care about. They do nothing at the local or state levels. They show up last minute, scream “nothing we do matters,” then fuck off until the next general.
Just grenades complaining and griping and destroying things with no end in sight.
The American system is literally fake it is so sad watching you people pretend it isn’t and your local elections matter. Your local elections are a sham and complete and total joke when you do this:
i’m curious how you think you know all of this? sounds to me like you’ve created a neat straw man that lives in your head for you to get mad at
I said some people. If that’s not how you operate then you have nothing to worry about.
Here’s me making the same arguments 14 years ago :* https://dbzer0.com/blog/voting-is-bad-mkay/
Thought I blocked you, my mistake
LOL, tell me you don’t understand how U.S. elections work without telling me you don’t understand how U.S. elections work.
What a paint-chip eating moronic take.
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Dude comes so close, but then blames dem voters instead of the politicians or political system that represents capital ahead of people.
It’d be one thing if Biden was listening to the base, but he does all this in spite of the dems, not because of them.
Despite what the republicans say, Biden is not swayed by money (hence why Obama had to pay for his son’s medical procedures) or what anyone tells him, he always does what he knows is right. Unfortunately he has the kind of moral compass that tells you to oppose desegregation and write 100:1 laws.
We can’t change the system unless we vote en bloc. For president, there are two choices, but there are thousands of downticket races for state and local governments where there are valid progressive options. Conservatives have been extremely successful getting their base to consistently back conservative candidates in those local campaigns, and they are getting what they want because politicians fear their unified wrath.
Progressives can be torn apart and distracted by absurd thought experiments and false equivalencies.
I’d rather hear the “Trump is worse” arguments than listen to people try to gaslight us into believing Biden’s been good, at least “Trump is worse” is true
For real, these fascistic democrats are getting to be as big of a problem as the fascistic republicans.
They get worse every time they lose elections because they’re able to sell their voter base on all the “we need to do these horrible things to win” arguments. Step one of solving our problems is electing shitty Democratic lawmakers, step two is primarying them for failing to do what they campaigned on (with community organizing and mutual aid throughout these two steps and just as a general ongoing thing).
They get worse every time they lose elections because they’re able to sell their voter base on all the “we need to do these horrible things to win” arguments.
For real.
And enough with the social justice fakery, embrace UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, fully, or shut the f*** up about it.
Preaching generic “omg this is so wrong!” to the choir doesn’t really do any good when the social conservatives really only need to be educated about human rights. They’ll join that UN party when they figure out what’s really up with human rights.
So your imaginary scum, being scum, somehow means that Biden having never remotely done anything like your imaginary scum, is the same as Fat Joffrey who behaves daily like your imaginary scum?? I don’t think this is the “both sides” you’re looking to employ.
OK, but you do see where it’s insane to state that Trump is worse as a response to issues people take with Biden no?
Why is it insane?
Because it implies that you cannot desire for Biden to do better without “supporting Trump” its a terrible argument and its just factually wrong.
It is so funny watching Americans contort themselves as if the elections aren’t a sham. They act as if they are voting on board members for the banks, you know the people with power lol.
As others have said, the analogy is wrong, but for different reasons than what I’ve seen.
A better analogy is an abusive relationship. There’s your partner who beats you regularly. You’re often left bruised. You talk about leaving and the response is ‘the other guy will break your arms, and unless you agree to stay with me, they’re moving in and they will break your arms. I’m still punching you, and there’s no chance I’ll stop, but I’m better than that person.’
There is a cycle of abuse. Look it up. There’s no way to make an abusive relationship better. There’s very little chance that a person will change while they have power over a victim. Power gives up nothing without a fight.
The abuser might change, but only after reflection and a loss of power.
The analogy is wrong cuz in politics you only have two choices and in dating u have billions.
No matter what choice you make, fascism still wins. That’s just the American way. You can have covert fascism, or overt fascism.
The illusion of choice, the lie of hope
yeah let’s not use domestic abuse as leverage to support partisan politics garbage, from any side
disrespectful as fuck
