for the record, like almost all big classic sci-fi, these books (dune) are remarkably bigoted and reductive. i still like space stories and political intrigue tho.

alt text: Trade Offer from Sand Worm Leto Atreides. You receive: 4000 years of planet bound subjugation. Spice, eventually. Famine. Sex ninjas from outer space. Golden Path… I recieve: Like 70 something Duncan Idahos. Gentle Hwi.

  • marine_mustang@sh.itjust.works
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    30
    ·
    8 months ago

    Yeah, later books seem like Frank Herbert was way too obsessed with sex. The idea of Honored Maitres as using sex to control humans seemed pretty misogynistic, even at the time (yes, eventually there was a guy, too). Still, I think the whole “put humanity in a pressure cooker so they explode outwards when the lid is gone” concept was pretty thought-provoking. Also the Siona project; if prescience is a real thing in that universe, it can be studied and understood, then weaponized. How do you defend against an enemy that knows where and when you’ll be?

    • A_Union_of_Kobolds@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      20
      ·
      8 months ago

      I’m reading Chapterhouse right now and my God Frank has some real sexual issues doesn’t he? I thought the Idaho gholas in God-Emperor were weird enough.

      Still, as a critique on power structures, Dune as a whole is phenomenal

      • Dr. Bob@lemmy.ca
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        10
        ·
        8 months ago

        May I introduce you to John Norman and the wholesome little planet of Gor?

        • mosiacmango@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          10
          ·
          edit-2
          8 months ago

          Jesus, i bought one of those from a little book store years ago because “cool cover!”

          I remember that I was making small talk with the clerk/owner and said something like “this book looks rad!” And he gave me one of those slightly long “suuurree” replies.

          I was maybe 30 pages in later and just put it down. “Really fucked up misogyny as a civilization” aint exactly a great genre.

          • Dr. Bob@lemmy.ca
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            7
            ·
            edit-2
            8 months ago

            Or is it the best genre?

            Don’t look for a film adaptation any time soon.

            eta: I went to look Gor up in wikipedia and Holy Shit! He’s still publishing them as ebooks! #38 is coming out this year.

    • frezik@midwest.social
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      18
      ·
      8 months ago

      It gets overlooked today, but Barron Harkonnen is a gay stereotype. Overlooked because gay men being hyperviolent is a stereotype that’s long died out, but it was a thing.

      Dune starts in a weird place and it gets weirder as it goes.

      • L3mmyW1nks@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        8 months ago

        IIRC, Frank Herbert very explicitly described how Leto II was applying homosexuality to his Fish Speakers in order to keep control over the violent traits common for any army. Luckily, it was just a few pages of it.
        Then in the last book he started writing about Space Jews and I got a little frightened where that might end up…