The thing is that the botanical definition of berries doesn’t match perfectly with the everyday definition. That doesn’t make the latter wrong, it just has other applications
Yeah, it’s like the whole “tomatoes are actually a fruit” thing. So are zucchinis and eggplants, but nobody ever brings that up. It’s always tomatoes.
There’s a botanical definition and a culinary definition. So, that doesn’t mean that somebody who calls a tomato a vegetable is wrong. And don’t put any tomatoes in my fruit salad!
Vegetable is also exclusively a culinary definition. Vegetables are essentially any edible plant structure that are not sweet and aren’t the seeds directly (which are grains or nuts). Typically vegetables are flowers, leaves, stems, or roots, but some non-sweet fruits like cucumbers, peppers, and green beans are also squarely in the vegetable category despite definitely being fruits, no reason they can’t be both.
And the concept of a vegetable varies culturally. I live in Germany and I consider mais vegetables (it feels weird to call it corn in this context since other grains aren’t). In Romania (and elsewhere I guess) potatoes are a vegetable which they aren’t for me.
Carrots, corn, and peas all poke holes in that definition. It’s a culinary definition but also an arbitrary and subjective one, trying to define rules just makes it more ridiculous.
Come up with an everyday definition for berry that includes strawberries, blueberries, and raspberries but excludes grapes, figs, and cherry tomatoes without identifying any particular fruit by name.
I could try to but I don’t need to. The fact that you could easily name some fruits that aren’t berries is proof enough that you have a concept of what a berry is and what isn’t. Coming up with a definition would be the next step.
So I agree that “definition” is the wrong word. I should have said “concept”. Besides: what’s wrong with definitions that are just a list of elements?
I mean personally I always thought it was fucking stupid that a strawberry is the same kind of thing as a blueberry but a grape isn’t. Apparently Iceland agrees.
It’s all a social construct. It exists because and as long as we all agree on it. So it’s flexible and not set in stone, nor scientifically falsifiable
I mean, it isn’t meaningless, just culturally subjective and lacking a rigerous definition. Berries are a set of specific fruit, which fruit being included being determined by the culture in question base on percieved similarities and historic uses. We use it to quickly bring up the specific group and whatever vague characteristics we percieve them to share.
So, the definition for berries that you seek is simply “the fruit people you’re interested in would point at and identify as a berry”, which is a vague definition and not rigerous at all, but most people would in fact think of the same thing you do if you say “I put berries on top of my cake”. If I ask my wife “hey, on your way home swing by the store and buy some berries, any type will do”, she will not bring a watermelon. She in fact will buy what we both agree are berries, and so the word has useful meaning.
You’ll find most classifications humans have do this too. The real world is really good at refusing to fit into the neat boxes we made to classify it and the things in it, and yet we can still use them fine enough as long as we don’t get lost in semantics and wondering if a hot dog is a sandwich or cereal soup.
The thing is that the botanical definition of berries doesn’t match perfectly with the everyday definition. That doesn’t make the latter wrong, it just has other applications
Yeah, it’s like the whole “tomatoes are actually a fruit” thing. So are zucchinis and eggplants, but nobody ever brings that up. It’s always tomatoes.
There’s a botanical definition and a culinary definition. So, that doesn’t mean that somebody who calls a tomato a vegetable is wrong. And don’t put any tomatoes in my fruit salad!
Vegetable is also exclusively a culinary definition. Vegetables are essentially any edible plant structure that are not sweet and aren’t the seeds directly (which are grains or nuts). Typically vegetables are flowers, leaves, stems, or roots, but some non-sweet fruits like cucumbers, peppers, and green beans are also squarely in the vegetable category despite definitely being fruits, no reason they can’t be both.
And the concept of a vegetable varies culturally. I live in Germany and I consider mais vegetables (it feels weird to call it corn in this context since other grains aren’t). In Romania (and elsewhere I guess) potatoes are a vegetable which they aren’t for me.
So is potato like a grain to you? In the sense of treating it more like a staple?
Absolutely! Potatoes, grains (except mais) and legumes (except green beans) are carbs (or staples). Polenta is too, despite being made of mais.
I thought that’s the default?
I don’t know who downvoted that but it wasn’t me. I get where you’re coming from, but I think more in terms of the part of the plant I suppose.
Carrots, corn, and peas all poke holes in that definition. It’s a culinary definition but also an arbitrary and subjective one, trying to define rules just makes it more ridiculous.
It’s intelligent to know that tomatoes are fruits and it’s wise not to put then into a fruit salad
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A tomato based fruit salad is called salsa.
Come up with an everyday definition for berry that includes strawberries, blueberries, and raspberries but excludes grapes, figs, and cherry tomatoes without identifying any particular fruit by name.
how about:
*berr*Oh yeah! As in “cucumberring the salad will improve it!”
I could try to but I don’t need to. The fact that you could easily name some fruits that aren’t berries is proof enough that you have a concept of what a berry is and what isn’t. Coming up with a definition would be the next step.
So I agree that “definition” is the wrong word. I should have said “concept”. Besides: what’s wrong with definitions that are just a list of elements?
I mean personally I always thought it was fucking stupid that a strawberry is the same kind of thing as a blueberry but a grape isn’t. Apparently Iceland agrees.
It’s all a social construct. It exists because and as long as we all agree on it. So it’s flexible and not set in stone, nor scientifically falsifiable
Sure. One is grown on a berry farm, the other isn’t.
Use for ice cream, pies, and smothies berries.
Are grapes not considered berries in the anglosphere? In Icelandic they literally are named “Wine berries” and considered as such.
More evidence than the concept of “an every day definition of berry” is completely meaningless
I mean, it isn’t meaningless, just culturally subjective and lacking a rigerous definition. Berries are a set of specific fruit, which fruit being included being determined by the culture in question base on percieved similarities and historic uses. We use it to quickly bring up the specific group and whatever vague characteristics we percieve them to share.
So, the definition for berries that you seek is simply “the fruit people you’re interested in would point at and identify as a berry”, which is a vague definition and not rigerous at all, but most people would in fact think of the same thing you do if you say “I put berries on top of my cake”. If I ask my wife “hey, on your way home swing by the store and buy some berries, any type will do”, she will not bring a watermelon. She in fact will buy what we both agree are berries, and so the word has useful meaning.
You’ll find most classifications humans have do this too. The real world is really good at refusing to fit into the neat boxes we made to classify it and the things in it, and yet we can still use them fine enough as long as we don’t get lost in semantics and wondering if a hot dog is a sandwich or cereal soup.
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Some berries are just Berry In Name Only.