Well, they quitely took over what, 10% of Bhutan, since 2021 - and noone cares, because noone cares about Bhutan, right? Bhutan didn’t sold those territories, and isn’t even trying to defend them, because how would that work.
And that it is militarily a very good position in case they’d want to expand into India, that’s just a coincidence, I’m sure.
I mean yeah, I get it, compare it to the empire of evil and it looks benign. But it isn’t good, just a lesser of two evils.
I mean, that’s a really good example! And I appreciate it. Do you have any more resources about it? The wiki article is a little vague, and it would be interesting to compare with border skirmishes w India.
I’m a little hesitant to frame things as “evil” but I get your point. Its really hard to pin down China international policy, IMO, so having something concrete to review is always helpful.
Well, yeah, sorry, in my mind it is different than e. g. what Russia is doing or Israel, because China is not bombing the Bhutan capitol. They destroy the villages and drive away or kill the locals.
But I should’ve clarified. (And I am condemning China here if that was not clear).
Other examples , though much less blatant are the ways that the PRC won the Sri Lankan civil war and led to the total massacre of the Tamil Tigers, and the PRC’s ongoing support for the Tatmydaw in Myanmar - pulling lots of levers and helping keep the aircraft bombing rebel population centres going.
You can be an imperialist by supporting other nation’s governments to get your own benefit.
I mean, the links provided above re:Bhutan aren’t what I would describe as blatant. One link is paywalled, one link is very tame and conciliatory toward China, one link makes some bold claims but upon inspection has a particular political alignment, and cites some compelling but not really definitive sources. Its been a good place to begin, but IMO doesn’t demo anything conclusive.
I’ll look into the situation in Sri Lanka, and Myanmar. I agree that China is not above real politik when it comes to foreign relations, but any references you could share would also be appreciated.
I was sure I had found a PRC diplomatic statement about the Sri Lankan Civil War and China’s aid for legitimate governments opposing separatism, but my 百度夫 is weak today - or I need to VPN into China to get better search results. I’ll try to find time to dig it up, but some poking about will find plenty on Chinese aid to Sri Lanka in the first two decades of the 21st century while the war was ongoing.
I don’t find these sources to be particularly damning toward PRC. The section in the second reference that was like “why would an authoritarian communist country support a democratically elected government?” Was just like redscare bs. Is it hard to believe that China does not want a civil war on its border? That they would make moves to stop illegal arms markets? Criticisms of China would be much more convincing to me if the reporters weren’t holding flashlights under their chin and describing somewhat normal and peaceful IR tactics in a spooky ominous tone.
Like, no, I don’t think supporting a military junta is a moral good. But I can also recognize that, after 5 years of civil war, China may want to normalize relations with their neighbor. If they invaded to overthrow the junta, that would also be bad. If they support the rebels, then the junta uses that to foment anti-Chinese sentiment on their border. It might be appropriate to disagree with the policy, but it seems to be coming from a source where no matter what actions PRC took, there would be risks and grounds fr criticism.
Based on the sources you provided, even reading through the doomish tone, Chinese actions appear pretty rational. Not above criticism, perhaps, but such criticism should be carried out in a principled and not opportunist or polemical manner, at least, if it is to be convincing to me. I like objective views, and I like views coming from real people. Lacking that, and serving a big dose of propaganda, is a real turn off for me.
I agree that one needs to read past the red scare. The PRC, despite what the US says, is a rational actor not a boogeyman.
Sadly, news sources for Myanmar are scarce, so I try to remove the editorialising and focus on the factual events - since editorialising and red scare aside, the Irrawaddy has enough of a good reputation to not make up events wholesale.
And there it comes down to, sadly, that the PRC’s “we don’t meddle” line is sadly untrue. And while I do think that so far the evidence is that the PRC is not as destabilising and destructive for others as the US, there is no sign that a rise in the influence of the PRC will help much - instead we’ll see more of what there has been in Pakistan, Myanmar, Sri Lanka, Laos, and others on a wider scale.
An entrenching of existing inequality, and helping the current dominant factions to cement their place in return for resources and Chinese capital getting to accumulate.
Well, they quitely took over what, 10% of Bhutan, since 2021 - and noone cares, because noone cares about Bhutan, right? Bhutan didn’t sold those territories, and isn’t even trying to defend them, because how would that work.
And that it is militarily a very good position in case they’d want to expand into India, that’s just a coincidence, I’m sure.
I mean yeah, I get it, compare it to the empire of evil and it looks benign. But it isn’t good, just a lesser of two evils.
I mean, that’s a really good example! And I appreciate it. Do you have any more resources about it? The wiki article is a little vague, and it would be interesting to compare with border skirmishes w India.
I’m a little hesitant to frame things as “evil” but I get your point. Its really hard to pin down China international policy, IMO, so having something concrete to review is always helpful.
Only what Bhutan newspapers outputs - Kuensel and the other one I forgot the name (paywal https://kuenselonline.com/dz/news/bhutan-china-border-talks).
Bhutan is literally being “polite” invaded (as in: not bombing the capital or hospitals, just army rounding up people and destroying their villages) and is doing anything to deescalate and stop, but it is a much weaker party. They tried formal protests in Chinese Embassy in India, they are trying… negotiations (e. g. https://www.mfa.gov.bt/joint-press-release-on-the-25th-round-of-boundary-talks-between-bhutan-and-china/), but they are still being annexed against their will by China - see also https://blogs.soas.ac.uk/china-institute/2024/12/18/the-bhutan-anomaly/
“polite invaded” isn’t a thing
Well, yeah, sorry, in my mind it is different than e. g. what Russia is doing or Israel, because China is not bombing the Bhutan capitol. They destroy the villages and drive away or kill the locals.
But I should’ve clarified. (And I am condemning China here if that was not clear).
Thanks, I’ll look these over
Other examples , though much less blatant are the ways that the PRC won the Sri Lankan civil war and led to the total massacre of the Tamil Tigers, and the PRC’s ongoing support for the Tatmydaw in Myanmar - pulling lots of levers and helping keep the aircraft bombing rebel population centres going.
You can be an imperialist by supporting other nation’s governments to get your own benefit.
I mean, the links provided above re:Bhutan aren’t what I would describe as blatant. One link is paywalled, one link is very tame and conciliatory toward China, one link makes some bold claims but upon inspection has a particular political alignment, and cites some compelling but not really definitive sources. Its been a good place to begin, but IMO doesn’t demo anything conclusive.
I’ll look into the situation in Sri Lanka, and Myanmar. I agree that China is not above real politik when it comes to foreign relations, but any references you could share would also be appreciated.
Chinese arms in Myanmar- but be aware that the United Wa Army are allies of and get their weapons from the PRC.
A longer opinion piece from the same paper on China’s meddling in the ongoing civil war, and earlier parts of history.
I was sure I had found a PRC diplomatic statement about the Sri Lankan Civil War and China’s aid for legitimate governments opposing separatism, but my 百度夫 is weak today - or I need to VPN into China to get better search results. I’ll try to find time to dig it up, but some poking about will find plenty on Chinese aid to Sri Lanka in the first two decades of the 21st century while the war was ongoing.
I don’t find these sources to be particularly damning toward PRC. The section in the second reference that was like “why would an authoritarian communist country support a democratically elected government?” Was just like redscare bs. Is it hard to believe that China does not want a civil war on its border? That they would make moves to stop illegal arms markets? Criticisms of China would be much more convincing to me if the reporters weren’t holding flashlights under their chin and describing somewhat normal and peaceful IR tactics in a spooky ominous tone.
Like, no, I don’t think supporting a military junta is a moral good. But I can also recognize that, after 5 years of civil war, China may want to normalize relations with their neighbor. If they invaded to overthrow the junta, that would also be bad. If they support the rebels, then the junta uses that to foment anti-Chinese sentiment on their border. It might be appropriate to disagree with the policy, but it seems to be coming from a source where no matter what actions PRC took, there would be risks and grounds fr criticism.
Based on the sources you provided, even reading through the doomish tone, Chinese actions appear pretty rational. Not above criticism, perhaps, but such criticism should be carried out in a principled and not opportunist or polemical manner, at least, if it is to be convincing to me. I like objective views, and I like views coming from real people. Lacking that, and serving a big dose of propaganda, is a real turn off for me.
I agree that one needs to read past the red scare. The PRC, despite what the US says, is a rational actor not a boogeyman. Sadly, news sources for Myanmar are scarce, so I try to remove the editorialising and focus on the factual events - since editorialising and red scare aside, the Irrawaddy has enough of a good reputation to not make up events wholesale.
And there it comes down to, sadly, that the PRC’s “we don’t meddle” line is sadly untrue. And while I do think that so far the evidence is that the PRC is not as destabilising and destructive for others as the US, there is no sign that a rise in the influence of the PRC will help much - instead we’ll see more of what there has been in Pakistan, Myanmar, Sri Lanka, Laos, and others on a wider scale.
An entrenching of existing inequality, and helping the current dominant factions to cement their place in return for resources and Chinese capital getting to accumulate.
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Thanks for the links I’ll check them out