More complicated than what most people think considering the history of Taiwan. Imagine if fascist in your country seized a region via ethnic cleansing and then created a break away state. Would your country be happy to recognize it as an independent nation? The only thing that complicates this is they eventually established a somewhat democratic government, after +40 years of violent authoritarianism.
Ask literally any average Southeast Asian citizen about China’s influence on their country, and you’ll get a sense of Chinese imperialist ambitions.
Eh… Comparatively I think you would hear worse if you asked them about western ambitions.
China is a superpower, you don’t get to that status without flexing that power. The reality is that every superpower in history regardless of what social economic system they utilize has to compete with an established hegemony to upset the status quo. You can label that as imperialism if you want However that opens the debate on how we quantify imperialism, and the only real way to do that is by comparison.
Compared to the leading superpower I’d hardly say their activity in their own backyard really can’t be compared to what the US is currently doing to control a waterway right now.
I’m brushing over the long history of Han ethnic expansionism
I think Han chauvinism has long been an issue within China, even Mao spoke about it during his time in power. Do I think it’s as dire as it’s depicted in western media? No, but I do hope that the CCP takes more steps to integrate ethnic minorities into positions in higher government like the politburo. That being said, is the treatment of ethnic minorities on the same level or worse than in western nations…? Not really, which leads me to believe that ethnic chauvinism isn’t really a problem specific to any government or economic system.
war with communist Vietnam over their supposed vassal-state of Cambodia.
Which the CCP openly admits was a misguided mistake, and apparently unlike other superpowers was something they actually learned from.
Would your country be happy to recognize it as an independent nation
Self-determination is a virtue. Holding onto the claims of your forefathers is problematic to say the least. History of Israel and all that.
Comparatively I think you would hear worse if you asked them about western ambitions.
Anecdotally, I have experienced the opposite. I oppose US imperialism too. It’s all bad
You can label that as imperialism if you want However that opens the debate on how we quantify imperialism, and the only real way to do that is by comparison.
This is a non-answer. You want to discuss the nature of power and dynamics. Doing an imperialism because your neighbor did an imperialism does not make it morally correct, in fact it’s likely to lead to a cascade into conflict. This is not US or Russia apologia, everyone should rail them for doing that. Making excuses for China doing the same is the weakest take you can have in a conversation on the topic of morality.
On the topic of Han ethnicity, we should always be wary of the concept of ethnicity in political policy, rather than people as people.
Great to hear that the CCP is willing to admit a few mistakes. Really puts into perspective how bad Trump is.
The non-western world’s current stance on LGBTQ+ will always make the US and Europe better places to exist for personal choice and freedoms. Until that changes, Chinese / Russian apologists will always be treated with derision and Fox News level credibility. FYI
Self-determination is a virtue. Holding onto the claims of your forefathers is problematic to say the least. History of Israel and all that.
Is it always a virtue? For example, was the Arrow Cross party taking over Hungary and helping exterminate 500k Hungarian Jews a virtuous act of self determination?
I oppose US imperialism too. It’s all bad
I think we can agree that any foreign nation flexing their power their smaller neighboring countries is bad, but we are making a comparison here. You can disagree with the actions of both countries and still compare their actions against each other.
This is a non-answer. You want to discuss the nature of power and dynamics.
My point wasn’t supposed to be interpreted as a definitive answer. It was a way to open the discussion to further evaluation.
Doing an imperialism because your neighbor did an imperialism does not make it morally correct, in fact it’s likely to lead to a cascade into conflict.
To have an actual discussion about this we would have to first define what you think imperialism actually is. That way we can separate acts of imperialism, and actions taken to bulwark against encroaching imperialism.
Imo morality rarely comes into play when super powers enact geopolitical strategy. As observers we can analyze the resulting fallout of those strategies, but I think it’s a mistake to assume morality in their intent.
excuses for China doing the same is the weakest take you can have in a conversation on the topic of morality.
I don’t think I really brought up morality, I was focused more on outcomes of their actions.
The non-western world’s current stance on LGBTQ+ will always make the US and Europe better places to exist for personal choice and freedoms.
Ehh… It kinda depends on what country you are talking about in Europe and honestly the US is back sliding on that front as well.
Many East Asian countries including China have actually made a lot of progress for the LGBT populations there. The Chinese government tends to take a hands off approach, going so far as to adopt the “Three Nos” position as in “no approval, no disapproval, and no promotion”.
Most LGBT people in East Asia are a lot more affected by their own family’s perception rather than the government. The wide influence of Confucianism makes any changes to family structure a slow and difficult process. Though the general acceptance among young urban people has been pretty rapid.
Until that changes, Chinese / Russian apologists will always be treated with derision and Fox News level credibility. FYI
I think that’s making a hasty generalization… I can in fact believe that China has a better track record on foreign policy than most western countries, and still be critical about some of their domestic policy. Does that make me an apologist, or were you just creating a false dichotomy?
I also don’t really know what Russia has to do with anything I’ve said? We were talking about eastern and/or socialist countries…Russia isn’t either of those. FYI
Yes. Nazi’s killing Jews is explicitly against the self-determination of said Hungarian Jews. To shorthand this argument: People make countries, countries don’t make people.
still compare their actions against each other.
I set the line at morality in my subsequent responses. Comparing two hegemon’s actions in discussions often falls into the Argumentum ad antiquitatem fallacy.
My first post was explicitly calling out the downplaying of Chinese imperialism from the OP. I don’t have time lately to discuss geopolitical strategies of hegemons, as you will see with this truncated response, but I will call out influence tactics of the either ill-informed or state-paid actors. Hence, bringing Russia into this.
As for LGBTQ+, I have no interest in modeling state systems that are behind on personal freedoms such as these. It’s good to hear things are changing, and I hope they do for everyone’s sake, but watching even the more “freedom” minded places utilize LGBTQs as scapegoats for conservative failings gives me little hope for the timeline of places where they are not legally recognized.
Nazi’s killing Jews is explicitly against the self-determination of said Hungarian Jews.
And what about tens of thousands of civilians The KMT murdered to create the ROC?
Comparing two hegemon’s actions in discussions often falls into the Argumentum ad antiquitatem fallacy.
Only if you force the comparison into a subjective debate about morality instead of utilizing objective observation like outcomes.
I don’t have time lately to discuss geopolitical strategies of hegemons, as you will see with this truncated response, but I will call out influence tactics of the either ill-informed or state-paid actors. Hence, bringing Russia into this.
You don’t have time to discuss the actual topic, but do have time to showhorn in a strawman argument?
As for LGBTQ+, I have no interest in modeling state systems that are behind on personal freedoms such as these.
I don’t think state systems have a real affect on the personal freedoms of LGBTQ people. There are plenty of liberal democracies that are still way behind on LGBTQ rights, and we’ve seen policy that was progressive for it’s time in communist countries and we’ve also seen those countries regress in the same policies. It has more to do with social mores than how you run a state.
How is that a circular argument? And how does that support your argument? Is it a virtuous act of self determination if it deprives the right to self determination from others?
The kmt did not believe in the people’s right to self determination, which is self evident in their slaughtering of tens of thousands of its own citizens who protested against the kmt government.
More complicated than what most people think considering the history of Taiwan. Imagine if fascist in your country seized a region via ethnic cleansing and then created a break away state. Would your country be happy to recognize it as an independent nation? The only thing that complicates this is they eventually established a somewhat democratic government, after +40 years of violent authoritarianism.
Eh… Comparatively I think you would hear worse if you asked them about western ambitions.
China is a superpower, you don’t get to that status without flexing that power. The reality is that every superpower in history regardless of what social economic system they utilize has to compete with an established hegemony to upset the status quo. You can label that as imperialism if you want However that opens the debate on how we quantify imperialism, and the only real way to do that is by comparison.
Compared to the leading superpower I’d hardly say their activity in their own backyard really can’t be compared to what the US is currently doing to control a waterway right now.
I think Han chauvinism has long been an issue within China, even Mao spoke about it during his time in power. Do I think it’s as dire as it’s depicted in western media? No, but I do hope that the CCP takes more steps to integrate ethnic minorities into positions in higher government like the politburo. That being said, is the treatment of ethnic minorities on the same level or worse than in western nations…? Not really, which leads me to believe that ethnic chauvinism isn’t really a problem specific to any government or economic system.
Which the CCP openly admits was a misguided mistake, and apparently unlike other superpowers was something they actually learned from.
Self-determination is a virtue. Holding onto the claims of your forefathers is problematic to say the least. History of Israel and all that.
Anecdotally, I have experienced the opposite. I oppose US imperialism too. It’s all bad
This is a non-answer. You want to discuss the nature of power and dynamics. Doing an imperialism because your neighbor did an imperialism does not make it morally correct, in fact it’s likely to lead to a cascade into conflict. This is not US or Russia apologia, everyone should rail them for doing that. Making excuses for China doing the same is the weakest take you can have in a conversation on the topic of morality.
On the topic of Han ethnicity, we should always be wary of the concept of ethnicity in political policy, rather than people as people.
Great to hear that the CCP is willing to admit a few mistakes. Really puts into perspective how bad Trump is.
The non-western world’s current stance on LGBTQ+ will always make the US and Europe better places to exist for personal choice and freedoms. Until that changes, Chinese / Russian apologists will always be treated with derision and Fox News level credibility. FYI
Is it always a virtue? For example, was the Arrow Cross party taking over Hungary and helping exterminate 500k Hungarian Jews a virtuous act of self determination?
I think we can agree that any foreign nation flexing their power their smaller neighboring countries is bad, but we are making a comparison here. You can disagree with the actions of both countries and still compare their actions against each other.
My point wasn’t supposed to be interpreted as a definitive answer. It was a way to open the discussion to further evaluation.
To have an actual discussion about this we would have to first define what you think imperialism actually is. That way we can separate acts of imperialism, and actions taken to bulwark against encroaching imperialism.
Imo morality rarely comes into play when super powers enact geopolitical strategy. As observers we can analyze the resulting fallout of those strategies, but I think it’s a mistake to assume morality in their intent.
I don’t think I really brought up morality, I was focused more on outcomes of their actions.
Ehh… It kinda depends on what country you are talking about in Europe and honestly the US is back sliding on that front as well.
Many East Asian countries including China have actually made a lot of progress for the LGBT populations there. The Chinese government tends to take a hands off approach, going so far as to adopt the “Three Nos” position as in “no approval, no disapproval, and no promotion”.
Most LGBT people in East Asia are a lot more affected by their own family’s perception rather than the government. The wide influence of Confucianism makes any changes to family structure a slow and difficult process. Though the general acceptance among young urban people has been pretty rapid.
I think that’s making a hasty generalization… I can in fact believe that China has a better track record on foreign policy than most western countries, and still be critical about some of their domestic policy. Does that make me an apologist, or were you just creating a false dichotomy?
I also don’t really know what Russia has to do with anything I’ve said? We were talking about eastern and/or socialist countries…Russia isn’t either of those. FYI
Yes. Nazi’s killing Jews is explicitly against the self-determination of said Hungarian Jews. To shorthand this argument: People make countries, countries don’t make people.
I set the line at morality in my subsequent responses. Comparing two hegemon’s actions in discussions often falls into the Argumentum ad antiquitatem fallacy.
My first post was explicitly calling out the downplaying of Chinese imperialism from the OP. I don’t have time lately to discuss geopolitical strategies of hegemons, as you will see with this truncated response, but I will call out influence tactics of the either ill-informed or state-paid actors. Hence, bringing Russia into this.
As for LGBTQ+, I have no interest in modeling state systems that are behind on personal freedoms such as these. It’s good to hear things are changing, and I hope they do for everyone’s sake, but watching even the more “freedom” minded places utilize LGBTQs as scapegoats for conservative failings gives me little hope for the timeline of places where they are not legally recognized.
And what about tens of thousands of civilians The KMT murdered to create the ROC?
Only if you force the comparison into a subjective debate about morality instead of utilizing objective observation like outcomes.
You don’t have time to discuss the actual topic, but do have time to showhorn in a strawman argument?
I don’t think state systems have a real affect on the personal freedoms of LGBTQ people. There are plenty of liberal democracies that are still way behind on LGBTQ rights, and we’ve seen policy that was progressive for it’s time in communist countries and we’ve also seen those countries regress in the same policies. It has more to do with social mores than how you run a state.
Circular argument. How many native Taiwanese did the Han Chinese kill in the 1600s for the Qing to lay claim to the island?
How is that a circular argument? And how does that support your argument? Is it a virtuous act of self determination if it deprives the right to self determination from others?
The kmt did not believe in the people’s right to self determination, which is self evident in their slaughtering of tens of thousands of its own citizens who protested against the kmt government.