I know, I know, mostly just undergrads care about undergrad prestige (except resumé bots on LinkedIn scanning for “MIT”) but I’m curious about the average Lemming, who might lie less often than Redditors and probably isn’t a hyper outlier. Though I still expect selection and response bias :3
Let me start with my own wall of anecdotes.
- An old American embedded systems mentor I once had had had like two master’s degrees, but in his words,
Just get a Bachelor’s and a good internship. If the company will let you do it on their dime, then get the Master’s.
So the college-then-job thing wasn’t quite cause-then-effect.
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Another friend I had said “All of the higher-ups in the chip engineering dept I’m gunning for have a PhD. Wanna contribute meaningfully? Probably gotta have one too” (Somewhere in the entirety of Asia, exacts hidden for privacy). So grad school matters more in that case.
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My old econ teacher told me that, if you want a job where undergrad is just a stepping stone, then your undergrad “prestige” mostly doesn’t matter (e.g. pre-law, pre-med). And saving 50k in undergrad student loans to then dump into matching the S&P is a cheat code at age 18, worth far more than “initial salary”. not financial advice lol In this case, the “get your job” isn’t even that important.
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An acquaintance I once had pipelined from Cornell to DeepMind. There, prestige and its opportunities probably/definitely/maybe had an effect.
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A second acquaintance says his Canadian public school (iirc) only mildly helped him, so he went all-in on making his own networks outside of school to get into AI (Is he a hustler bro or something?). So he dodged the idea of college choice mattering.
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A Harvard acquaintance I knew says both their dad and granddad agreed that going to Harvard played into getting their positions. (No need to believe me. I forgot what position tho – finance/big business probably)
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The managers and manager managers my parents knew often only had community/state school undergrads, sometimes with MBAs.
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I don’t care about CEOs. All outliers anyway.
So what have you empirically found? And where? (inb4 “American elite school obsession bad” and “CS is skill-based, not school-based, thread over” – heard all of that already)
You can be vague if needed c:
I dont. I did highschool thats all. Then i got a job. So ill give you my perspective on stuff like this as someone who didnt do any of it.
I had undiagnosed ADHD in highschool and never did any homework or studied or anything. Only reason i graduated with Ds and Cs is that id basically get a 90-100 on every test or quiz without trying. I hated school. So as soon as i could i got a normal job. Ive worked in retail, warehouses, industrial sectors, etc all in the about 10 years since graduating highschool. Now i work in a more clerical position. Not physically demanding work. Which is nice.
Honestly as a poor person i see all of this stuff with higher ed, and knowing the right people as… silly? I guess. Its like watching all of you play this big game of theatre pretending to be meritocratic while clearly being fully commited to nepotism. The biggest factor in how much money someone makes is how much money their parents made.
I think all of you underestimate how many of us poor people dislike you too. Maybe not you in particular but the system you participate in. That manifests itself in the form of chud Trump supporters and neo-nazism a lot. They were created by this economy that has left them behind. So they fell for Trumps lies when he promised to destroy all of you, but i digress.
Nobody talks about school at the places i work. What matters is if you do a good job. I have no idea what education my coworkers have. Ive never even had to show someone my highschool diploma i didnt even get it cuz i skipped graduation day. So i assume the school threw it away. When applying for a job i type or check a box that i did highschool and thats that. They dont care. They want to know about experience and if ill be good at the job. That’s how it works when your poor.
As for my future plans as someone without a degree i want to get a cheap sailboat and live off the grid on it. Spending as little money as possible and enjoying nature.(solar for power, fish to supplement food, collect and filter rain for water, etc) Plus once the inevitable happens and theres massive civil unrest i can get outta dodge easier than most.
edit: I realize the below sounds kinda ranty. sorry lol
I’m mildly fortunate but ever since I was a kid I saw the rank race as insufferable as well. Since the start of high school I felt that way. Every step of college apps, standardized tests made me physically grimace.
Kids in my hs class obsessed over ranks. “You let this guy beat you? Chump.” “I’m taking all AP classes, I’m a workaholic!” “Did you know so-and-so got into Princeton? She’s so smart!” Superficial as fuck. Talk about something more interesting than numbering people, I beg of you.
The SAT depressed me. I did good, but only because I read at an unholy speed, I wasn’t super smart or anything. And I saw lots of kids get average SATs because of home trouble or not being a test killer or being unable to afford time or money for SAT training or not being able to take the SAT 5 times. Instant sieve.
Even in my undergrad people were ranky af. “Oh, yeah, I got waitlisted for Cornell, I got rejected from MIT, I got deferred from Carnegie-Mellon…” Shut up, please shut up. Whether it’s innocent or not, it helps no one and does nothing.
About your brief digression with Trump. My undergrad was heavy on DEI, and I think a lot of people disliked it but kept their mouth shut. I felt neutral either way but I’d hear conversations like
“Why didn’t I get into this program? What did the others do that I didn’t have?”
“Oh, he’s gay.”
“Fuck, I shoulda been gay! Maybe I should apply for random scholarships and pretend I’m 1% Irish or whatever.”
even though they’d switch and say
“DEI is important for disadvantaged groups…”
during the orientation meeting. So I can see where a lot of modern hostility comes from, even though the effects of said hostilities have put America worse off.
Dreamy. Make sure you stay safe :P
DEI is just a dogwhistle for homophobia and racism. The issue with the Trump voters is he courts lots of just like pissed off poor white people and he redirects their anger at liberal elites towards immigrants, trans people, gay people, POC, etc.
If the economy wasn’t set up in such a way that these people are so poor theyd be less likely to buy into all that nonsense. Happy people dont join cults generally. Its the desperate and angry that join movements like that and then get radicalized to the right.
But ya i mean the whole degree or no degree is really just a “did you have 25 grand to get this piece of paper with at 18?” signifier. Its a class designator. Just like how in ancient times higher classes wore different colored clothes and whatnot.
Like for example take a retail worker vs someone at head office. The retail worker makes dirext contributions to tons of sales and if theyre gone for 1 hour shit starts to fall apart. Yet they make minimim wage usually.
The one at head office has pointless meeting all day, and if they stop working for an hour no one notices. Yet they make significantly more money.
The money made by a job isnt based on the value of the work in companies like this its based on the class of worker that applies for said job.
Now outside of large companies this isnt always the case as you can have trades, and sole proprietorships, etc. But those are some rare exceptions.
In general they place “high class” or “middle class” jobs behind a degree requirement even if the job isnt really very hard and a highschool education would be fine to do it.
Even highschool’s in the US are classed. Since they’re largely funded by property taxes high property values means better schools. And we have different curriculum in different schools too. There are highschools in rich areas which emphasize thinking outside the box, social skills, etc then in poor areas its more do as your told, heavy punishment rates, keeping people in line. This plays into the school to prison pipeline too. Prison is the lowest class in America as it is used for slave labor.
Americas classes are generally like this:
Capitalists: The ones who own everything billionaires 100+ millionaires etc
High class: some politicians, CEOs, people who typically act as a proxy and serve the will of a capitalist. Altho some capitalists choose to do these jobs themselves.
Upper middle class: People making significant money living very comfortably but who arent filthy rich. These are typically your highly skilled professional types. Doctors, Lawyers, etc.
Middle class: This is a very mixed bag but one of the main jobs of the middle class is to manage the lower classes. So its common for them to fill managerial roles.
Lower class: your poor workers who do whatever job they can to make ends meet.
Prison Labor: The millions of people in Americas prisons who do hard manual labor for pennies as a slave workforce. Usually in prison for some stupid bullshit that shouldn’t be illegal or shouldn’t have such a harsh sentence.
There are lots of signifiers to let people know what class you are that are baked into the system. Money being an obvious one, but degrees, criminal records, the way you dress, car you drive, phone you have, etc all play into it. And people subconsciously take note of it all the time. I personally find it to be an inhumane and gross system so i dont try to participate in it.